03: The Why of Spiraling, Dancing, and Innate Wisdom
About Karen Lynn Kaplan
Leveraging over 30 years of experience with global organizations, public, private, and not-for-profit entities, Karen works with leaders during critical junctures to be efficient, purposeful, and catalytic. She guides organizations through complex terrain toward meaningful results through four core services: keynote speeches, tailored consulting engagements, public speaking training for women, and executive coaching.
Prior to consulting, Karen served as Director of Work Train, a regional workforce development initiative, at CenterState Corporation for Economic Opportunity in Central New York. Based in Hong Kong, Karen worked with Teach For All, as the Senior Director of Network Growth in Asia Pacific, advising social entrepreneurs in launching and scaling locally-tailored programs committed to ensuring educational excellence and equity for all individuals, and building a pipeline of corporate and individual champions. For nearly a decade preceding, she served with the U.S. Agency for International Development working on democratic transition programming in various countries, including setting the strategic vision for and leading the program in Tunisia in direct response to the Arab Spring.
\Domestically, Karen served as Research and Policy Director at the Partnership for New York City, a non-profit representing the City’s business community. There she focused on local issues, including the economic impact of the 9/11 attack on New York City and education reform. Karen has also worked with refugee and immigrant communities overseas and in the U.S. and has run small retail businesses. Her first job out of college was as a Wrangler on a ranch in the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Karen has a Master of Public Administration degree from the Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse University and a Bachelor of Arts degree in Anthropology from Vassar College. Karen is a trained facilitator and certified coach.
For more information, please see her LinkedIn profile or website.
Transcript
Laurel (00:02.286)
Well, hello, Karen. Welcome. Today, Karen Lynn Kaplan is our guest. She owns her own business and she specializes in speaking, coaching, consulting with leaders. And one of the things I love about talking to Karen is that she has her own impact framework, but it's this practical approach to embracing
components of leadership and how to be true to yourself. So obviously we felt like that made her a perfect candidate to come on the Why We Are podcast and hear some of her stories. She has a rich history. She worked with USAID and partnerships all over the world. So I'm not sure where we'll go today, but I know that it'll be interesting and fun. Karen, thanks for being here today.
Thank you, Laurel. I'm really happy to be here and to talk with you and Sydney on this episode. And yeah, excited to see where the conversation does go. Awesome.
Right. let's dive right in. Karen, we're curious. What in your life have you experienced that really stressed you to a point where you had to adapt to survive it?
Yeah, it's such an intense question. And I actually came up with a few different ideas for better or worse. The one that just jumped out to me first was 9-11. And it was definitely a life-changing moment, a turning point in my life, as it was for a lot of people in New York and other places in the US and around the world, of course. But
Karen (01:47.35)
Yeah, it was actually my, I had moved to New York city a few months earlier after having moved back to, and Laurel mentioned my global stuff. I'd moved back from Nepal one of the times and said, I'm to move to New York city. And it was my second day of a new job and I was taking the subway as usual from Brooklyn to downtown. And I came out of the subway and it was a beautiful, you know, blue sky, sunny day. And I noticed that people.
on the streets were looking up. If you spend any time in New York, nobody looks up. Nobody who lives and works there looks up. And I looked up and I saw some papers flying really high in the wind and the air, et cetera. And that just kind of started, that was the beginning of what the experience for me.
what was an unforgettable day, months.
Yeah, exactly. And so I'd gone into the office and you know, there was some conversation about a small plane having hit one of the towers. So the first one had hit while it in the subway. And so when it came out of the subway, you know, the papers were clearly from the first hit, but no one, we didn't know what had happened. And in the office there, like I said, there were conversations about a small plane hitting, which was reminding us of a 93, I think a Cessna, like a four
person plane had hit the tower also. And so we thought, that's it horrible, but hadn't realized what had happened. And then all of a sudden, I could feel and hear a huge noise, which was the second plane. And so our building shook and it was like literally flying right by our building. We were a couple blocks south of the towers. And you know, it wasn't
Laurel (03:28.834)
Yeah.
Karen (03:41.256)
chaotic yet, which is actually a lot of my business. I just made that connection in my head. But, you know, we were obviously watching TV and trying to figure out what happened and it became chaotic. And then I had left the building, we were given instructions, everyone should leave. I grabbed my purse and you know, threw my bagel back in my purse and my water, etc. and left the building.
And we got down to the lobby and it turns out that our CEO was calling us back upstairs. Really nobody knew what to do, what was going on. And I'll admit, second day on the job, I said, I'm out of here. And then there was a bunch of people I didn't know yet. I just said, everyone get a buddy. Walked outside, woman said, I don't have a cell phone or I don't have a cell phone, I don't have change. And I had a cell phone, I gave her all of my change.
Which turned out not to be the best idea later. There a lot of things that just weren't quite right. I didn't dream that the cell phone networks would go down. anyway, walked outside and no one there to do. so my self-proclaimed buddy and I, just started walking and didn't know what direction to start walking a bit north. And then all of a sudden I turned a corner and then I saw what a lot of people saw on TV. But it was as far as I could see up this huge brown cloud coming at me.
Literally one of the most terrifying things I've ever seen or experienced. And then within a second, I couldn't see, I couldn't breathe, and I was in it. I was like, I was in a bag of flour. Wow. And then, yeah, like I said, couldn't see or couldn't breathe, and then I found a CVS store, and we could see in it. So we walked inside and then quickly turned back around because everyone started to panic.
Um, and then I find fascinating. Maybe you can help me figure this out. I don't know how without being able to see, I never tripped on a sidewalk or anything. Like I don't understand that. And so I kept, you know, I was grabbing my buddy and pulling it and she was wearing high heels. remember. And I was wearing the chunky kind and I was pulling her through and I remember trying to my eyes like numerous times and all of sudden I finally could. And I saw a little, uh, blue circle. I was like,
Karen (05:58.636)
I have to go in that direction because that's my way out. And I had no idea, again, no data, no guidance, nothing. I didn't know what to do. part of the reason I left the CVS store was because, like I said, people started to panic. But also, I thought, what if there's another plane and this building comes down? I'm happy to pause or keep going.
mean, Karen, first of all, thank you so much for sharing, you know, what is a personal experience, but also just an experience that impacted so many of us. I mean, there are now people that don't remember, right? Like many people that don't remember 9-11, you know, and I do. so I'm always just grateful when people share their stories, because I think
This is an interesting one and I'm so happy you're sharing it here because it impacted the system, impacted individual families, it impacted so much, it changed culture in America. so it's just a nice insight. We don't often talk about stressors that impact everybody and that is a date in American history that impacted everybody.
And I think there's very much like the before 9-11 and then after 9-11 for most of us. So one, I just wanted to thank you. And yes, there's so many things that we can go into when it comes to the neurobiology of stress responses, because you're remembering and asking questions about your acute survival response, which we would love to explore if you want to ask.
us to respond on those. And then also we do really, we will guide you and want to work toward some reflection for everybody on what did you learn from surviving and being present in a stressful traumatic. I mean, I'm going to put the, word on that day that not only impacted you, but impacted so many other people. Because I think that
Laurel (08:16.792)
can be a different mental exercise of like, it wasn't as bad for me as this person, or there's so many kind of ways our brain can go post getting out of the situation. So yeah, I'll just, I'll take a breath. What would feel helpful or what are you interested in, in going into more detail on or getting thoughts on?
Now you're making me realize there's just so much to talk about. Let me throw a few things out and then you can grab what maybe makes sense. You made me think Laurel just about how I had, I had friends who say worked in Midtown or lived on the Upper West Side or in Queens and they had an incredibly different experience. And so not even like, someone in Ohio, right?
Yeah.
Karen (09:08.18)
It was just shocking that if you weren't really in, of course, there's different concept with all these concentric circles, right? I like you said, there were people who didn't make it. So my main gratitude is I made it out. There's all that. And then, like you said, just think about its concentric circles. So even if you were like 15 blocks north, it was horrible and scary. And yet you weren't, it was just very different, right? And so what, so that's one thing I find is interesting and how
Yeah.
Karen (09:36.706)
We kind of manage and handle that. There's also something that's just kind of been a hangover, if you will. Not the best word, but in my mind, it's there's something that I've been trying to manage since. In terms of, and I figured part of it out, but I'd love to throw that at both of you and see if I figured it out in quote unquote the right way or maybe there's more to figure out.
Okay.
Laurel (10:02.126)
you're here. So we know that it was the right way for you. And yes, we are always happy to add to. so yeah. So what's that? I mean, we're already talking about what, what's the piece you feel like you figured out but still feels maybe slightly unfinished or residual
foggy.
Yeah, so it's interesting. So I became really claustrophobic. Now, I think I had growing up like when 15 kids in the playground will pile on top of me, I was not a fan. I think that was probably what most people's reaction. So in my I was like, I'm a little claustrophobic, but that's like my memory. But nothing beyond that. And then after 9-11, I was pretty intense feeling. And
and I don't like limits. I like to do lots of different adventurous things. And so this was a little bit annoying to me to say the least. But it really became, I think right after if I had to get on a plane is I had to have an aisle seat. So for 20 plus years, I've had to have an aisle seat. And so I just couldn't quite figure it out. And I would also have these kind of not just on planes, but in other times, there'd be moments where I don't know if it was a panic attack, but I just heard like,
like I wasn't, I was getting to not a good place, right? And I was trying to unpack it by myself. And what I realized at a few years later, I don't remember when, that there were three things that were happening. And when they happened at the same time, I was in a bad place. I was hot, hungry, and felt like I couldn't get out. And I was like, my goodness, Karen, that's what was happening in
Karen (11:52.366)
that moment on 9-11. I was hot. was a hot summer, sorry, September morning. I hadn't had my bagel yet. Right? I didn't know how to get out alive. And I thought, oh, when those three things happen, I call this my panic trifecta. You know, I'm not in a great place. And so I tried to, you know, make sure that I wore layers wherever I was that
I always had like a bar in my something to eat, a snack, you know? And then whenever I'm on a plane, I really try to get the aisle seat. But anyway, I would want to throw that to both of you.
Well, and I hear, you know, so much of it is that our bodies remember those somatic experiences, whether we're cognitive of them or not. And the term I really like to use is like fragmented bits of information, like all of these puzzle pieces kind of floating around in our brain and our neural network that don't really have a sense of time or language or understanding. And I hear you did the work to kind of take those puzzle pieces and put them back into the picture to know, this is what's going on.
Mm.
But there was also this innate wisdom of once you kind of saw that picture, you immediately went into adapting. These are the things that I can do to help calm my nervous system going into something that I know might be a challenge.
Karen (13:16.654)
Interesting.
Yeah, and I also let, know, people I think have this tendency of like, I have to have the aisle when really in the grand scheme of life, that is an easy thing you can control pretty like where, you know, my body just feels better when I'm on the aisle and I don't have to ask anyone to stand up. I don't have to crawl over. So like, and you know, I believe like if,
with work or EMDR or even just probably some deep breathing and other coping skills, you could sit not on the aisle. But we like to give ourselves a hard time when we have things like that about us. And I'm like, why? You have the means to do that. it makes sense. You're not alone, right? I'm sure there are people listening who are like, my gosh, me too.
You're right and it's hard. mean airplane travel these days is just feels fraught with personalities and just feels really different. So I think we're all really aware of that and you're absolutely right. So for all that time I've always tried to book earlier so I could you know and pay whatever $20 more or whatever it took because it's
was really important and I didn't want to get into that space. I remember being on a really long flight and I couldn't get an aisle seat. was, I think it was from Hong Kong to New York, like 19 hours. And I was in the middle and I was like, God. And I was like, Karen, you can do this. This is, not that it was ridiculous, but I'm like, you know, I was talking to myself. I was like, okay, just make it happen.
Sydney (15:02.689)
yourself
And I remember having to really talk to myself during the flight and close my eyes and say, it's really okay to try to get my, you guys have thoughts on this, try to get my rational part of the brain to take charge. Come on, you're on this plane for a really, really, really long time and you need to get through it and getting panicked is not gonna help you or anybody near you.
Yeah.
Laurel (15:33.676)
Yeah, I mean, and that was my, mean, having talked to my sense was that you have that ability. It was not easy, right? It was not what you pick, but you were able to do it. But I also think like that strength in you existed on 9-11. I mean, I heard that in your story. I just picked my head up and found blue and I knew I had to go that way, right?
Some brains are very well designed for stress goes up, find survival, go towards, you know, and, you know, and that is much more of the mobilization, sympathetic nervous system. To me, it's kind of, it's the fight, fight, flight versus, right? And I'm sure that day you saw people frozen that had to be cold or...
We're like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, you know, got stuck in a repetitive statement. And that wasn't how your nervous system responded that day despite being hungry, right? And, you know, which is amazing. But I hear those elements in your story of, know, I thought this and then I did this and you got through the plane arguably the same way. I don't know.
I'm hearing a lot of things in even just this little snippet of your story where like, okay, if the stress gets dialed up, like I'll go with Karen. Like we're gonna survive, we're gonna figure it out. Yeah, and then, and also for people listening, that doesn't mean that freeze is bad. That has a high resiliency factor too. I think we all just.
based on personality, based on the environments grew up in, who we saw and how they dealt with stress, we tend to have a default setting.
Karen (17:29.902)
Yeah, it's so interesting because, know, the when we went into the CVS store at in that moment, I thought that was a good idea one I could see and breathe. So that's a bonus, right? And that I thought, oh, this could be a safe harbor, if you will. And then all of a I was like, you know, like I said earlier, it just I was like, Yeah, I don't think this is a good idea. So went back into the chaos or the mess, right? Because I thought that maybe CVS store would be worse.
Right? how do you, lots of two evils, I don't know, but never really sure. And I just knew I needed to keep going. Right? And, but you don't know if it's right. And I think that that's the thing I think about in reflection is, you know, what was the, I mean, obviously it worked for me, luckily, but in the moment, I wasn't even thinking that, I I wasn't consciously deciding, is this a good idea, Karen? Do know what mean? It's just, you just gotta do stuff.
But a little bit in hindsight, like you don't know it. Staying in the CVS store might have been better for me.
Well, and to me, that's the beauty of the brain is your actual brain doesn't care. You survived it. You got through that experience. You lived to tell us and share your story. And that's all that matters. And what Laurel's talking about is this kind of sympathetic default of fight, flight, freeze. Your limbic system intuitively knows what you need. And so I heard the comment, you didn't know how you didn't fall and break an ankle. You were just going. It's because your body knew.
how to get you through that, and you trusted that. And the other really cool thing about the brain, and I know this isn't a really cool story you're telling, but I just love the neuroscience of what you're talking about in CVS is mirror neurons, right? We pick up on how other people are feeling, and you walked in and your nervous system said, hell no, this is not for me. And immediately, even in the thick of something that is so.
Sydney (19:26.818)
got wrenching it hard, your nervous system was like, this is not the right place and got you to a better place.
Hmm, interesting.
Listening to Sydney talk, Karen, also am like, I'm curious if the time you spend abroad and in different environments might have laid a foundation of like, when things are bad, don't stay at the site of the bad.
So interesting. Because I've done, I'll go back, which is your question. Going forward, I actually ended up doing some pretty high adrenaline overseas stuff. And I wonder if that's connected to you or not. Before, yeah, I had been overseas a bunch in Nepal.
doing some fun and interesting work as a student and then when professionally. And I think has really always enjoyed being in different cultures and trying new things and being in different situations that are sometimes incredibly uncomfortable and sometimes feel a bit unsafe if you don't know the culture, the environment, the language.
Karen (20:44.344)
kind of what people's norms are at different times of day, et cetera. mean, sometimes I was in situations where I was like, I don't know if this is really the best, but overall found them to be such enriching learning experiences that I was really hooked, for sure.
Laurel (21:01.038)
I mean, this is one of the things is that we like, like Sydney said that we like is because these are all pieces about you that influence then how you acted that day, then your decision to maybe seek more high adrenaline. I mean, again, for those of you who don't remember 9-11, this day changed how a lot of people viewed being an American.
like our felt sense of safety. And I think you are not the only person that made a career pivot that day. I know people who decided to join the military who had never talked about that before, right? I know people that went into civil service or are now firefighters because of that day or environmental. I mean, like I think it's hard if you weren't alive or you were so young, they don't really remember like
I can't, can't really downplay how big that day was.
Well, and I'll even speak to the fact I was pretty young when this happened. I was in the second grade and I remember exactly where I was. I remember being so freaking confused because every adult got quiet and there being a flood at the pickup line. And I grew up in upstate New York, so was only about two hours outside the city. But and no one could reach the parents and just I had no idea what's going on. And I didn't understand it, but it completely changed the direction and trajectory of my life, too.
Because starting in second grade, I knew I wanted to work with kids in some way, shape, or form. So yes, this is an experience like Karen, where you had to adapt to survive. But really, the whole nation had to adapt. And that has such a reach.
Karen (22:46.636)
Yeah, you're absolutely right. You're both. It's such a good point that it just changed so much and how people think about one another. like you said, like being an American and what that means. And of course that changes, you know? Yeah. And it was just really, I mean, poignant maybe is understatement, but it was really this shocking milestone.
That you're right impacted so many people in different ways and you mentioned people made careers and the ones you mentioned Laurel's interesting It my reaction to what you said those examples were I want for people who I want to dig in more or I want to shift into a career to kind of take hold some of this and help this and you know, like Beyond the team if you will and I and we also know a lot of people who are like it's just too much I don't want to make them to do with any of us right and
They're all fine and great, but you're right, it really got people to rethink and maybe re-center and re-ground in who they were and how they wanted to interact with the world. It was really dramatic in that way.
Yeah, so I mean, this I love also we kind of like staggered generations. We're not like you're kind of connected to my, you know, age and and said, and so what came up for me, Karen, I'm curious along this line, have you shared with your boys anything about that day and the experience? Like what what do they know about their mom's life work before them?
I would say part of it. And what a great question because actually, at whatever age it made sense, like I'd referenced it or maybe they heard me talking to a friend. But I think the first time they actually heard my story was when they were my test audience for my keynote speech.
Laurel (24:48.406)
Hey.
actually hadn't really realized that I hadn't told them the story. And I remember, and while I was practicing in front of them, I thought, my goodness, like, is this okay? Like, shit, I mean, they were teenagers, I do think it's okay, but as I was telling it, they both sank deeper into their chairs, and the looks on their faces were like, my God, our mom went through this.
And afterwards, they said, Mom, you never told us the whole story. I was like, oh my god, are you OK? Like, I'm OK. But it's a great question. And while you reference it, doesn't take hold, I think, the way that it might if you're truly telling the story, which you can't do without some emotion. So I think that is actually when they heard the full story.
But yeah, and I hadn't not told them the full story on purpose, but you know, it doesn't really come up and you kind of need to be ready for it.
Well, and this is kind of a beautiful segue into going back to that idea of mirror neurons is I'm sure even though you were giving the words, they were feeling what you were saying and picking up on it and knowing that they're organically and biologically more attached to you because your mom.
Laurel (26:18.894)
And how you pick your words differently when we're talking to our kids versus when we're talking to a group of people that we want to empower, right? And so not only were they seeing a different version of their mom, I mean, it's you, but I have two kids. My daughter is one of the meanest people in the world to me, not on purpose, right? But it's like, her attitude comes at me in a way nobody else speaks to me. She also loves me the most, right?
There's always that tension.
But it's just that idea of like, you showed up really as you from a place of, I'm gonna say power, but I mean, power as a way to empower. And so I'm sure, yeah, like Sydney was saying, like them feeling the full impact of those emotions and how it changed you. they didn't, we don't think about that, like how stuff like that impacted our parents.
You're absolutely right. And I tried to really underscore, especially after that, you know, the real takeaway is how important it is to take that first step. Even if you don't have all the information, you know, I had no idea what to do or what was going on. But like, you're both helping me, you know, kind of like, think through like, yeah, because that's when your brain and your body just kind of take over, right? How important it is to, you know, take action, whatever that means or feels like to you.
was really what I tried to underscore for them. Like it's all about, you even when things are unknown and uncertain, and that was a stark example, and hopefully you'll never go through that kids, but that, you know, when you're in these moments where you don't have a clear path or total clarity or all the information you really want, you know, you need to make a decision and do something.
Laurel (28:09.792)
Yeah, so we sort of jumped, right? We're in 2001, and now I'm guessing that was much more recent.
So to make it a little more general, are some of the ways that you go to those sort of next steps? Like through that experience, through your time abroad, these high adrenaline jobs or roles you've alluded to, what are those ways you kind of get out of your head and get into the action?
so I think I really try to, if I, if I feel, if I'm answering your question, if I feel like I'm not sure, it feels like too much of a swirl and a swirl could potentially lead to some sort of kind of worry or concern or panic if it gets really bad, right? But if I'm, feel like I'm headed towards a swirl, I really just try to ask questions, even if it's of myself.
Like, do I think this is really a threat? Is this really a problem, right? Or for someone else there, I can try to gather information from somebody else. So asking questions and getting information for me is really my first step, right? And then making sense of it and then trying to figure out, okay, here's my plan and then, you know, taking action, referred to earlier. But that really like getting information, I could, the other day said it not in a great, in a super complimentary way, but like, you always need information.
But I do, right? And I think a lot of us are information hounds. But for me, getting information doesn't have to be complete. But getting what I can helps me make a decision, helps me find, you know, do a pro-con analysis. It helps me think about like, what are, you know, I do scenario mapping all the time in work and just personally, even it's in my head. I have some information I can start to map out a few different ways that this could happen.
Karen (30:10.56)
And which one do I think is the quote unquote best path for right now? And that is my strategy. That's what really helps me move from a swirl or a potential swirl into feeling like, okay, I'm taking action and that feels better. And if it doesn't end up being the right path, then I can pivot. Just totally fine and good.
smiling because this is like, you are saying something Sid is such an advocate of in different words. So I like cannot wait for her to like, thoughts. Yeah. Like, like,
tell him
Sydney (30:46.222)
No, I so I am just a very visual person. So I love you saying swirl because to me like I immediately see almost like yarn, right? When you're like knitting or you're crocheting and you have this like perfect ball of yarn and when you're working with it and it's smooth, it's fluid and it kind of flows through all these different like caveats of our life and we can just kind of work with it and make what we want. But once it starts to spiral or
get all tangled together, it is not as fluid. And I agree with everything you're saying. It's actually how I respond. I want all of the information to make any informed decision. I need every like ounce of information I can get. And it's so interesting because with that, we kind of stay in our head. We have all this information and we stay in our head to make the best, most informed decision. And I'm curious if that is what we're doing. How then do you get out of your head?
like into the outside world around you.
You said something about mapping. So can we hear more about what that process looks like for you, Karen?
So I think I'm pretty good at not getting too stuck in the heady, because I'm so action oriented. And I think, and I'll talk about mapping, I think maybe part of this is at some point maybe when I had my first child, I gave up being a perfectionist. And I think maybe earlier life,
Karen (32:18.848)
I would try to get all the information and make the perfect decision and whatever. And then at some point, again, I think when I had my first kid, when I realized, you know, and I was working full time and we didn't get maternity leave then, you know, and my jobs, et cetera, like there just wasn't time for all of this. And so I think that just kind of like said, well, there's no way I can get everything done 100 % or perfectly anymore. So I think that kind of helped get rid of that. And so like it was all about get what I can.
make the best decision I can and take action. But I think that in terms of the mapping, I think that's in my nature, but the work that I had done a bit after 9-11 really codified it for me. And so now it's really, I think I do it innately now, and then also in my work really explicitly with clients, et cetera. But that work was really in, it was like political transition and stabilization work. And so the ease examples was my last
job was when the Arab Spring happened. I went over and designed and led a program that was helping Tunisians were interested in moving towards a democratic environment, you know how to do that. And so and worked in a number of those different environments. And so what you have is a swirl all the time with a very fluid environment or situation. So you're constantly having to get information.
Right? So it's security information, political information, socioeconomic data, like what's happening and how quickly is it changing? And you make a plan for three months tops because it's so fluid. Right? So for all these organizations or, you know, companies and nonprofits around the world who used to do 25 year plans or even five year plans now, I was like, yeah, we're doing three months because you never know. And you have to check, you have to check what's going on and make sure you're still relevant. And that's where we use the scenario mapping.
you're constantly trying to get the knots out of the yarn to be able to keep going.
Karen (34:20.206)
Correct, and enough, like maybe just enough. So you can try something and if it works, then you can keep going with that maybe, I'm not a knitter, but with kind of that row, if you will, and then maybe you have to switch up the pattern, right? You have to switch something up, et cetera. So I think I had some of that in my head, but then with all of that work, about 10 years of that type of work, it really became more part of me and how I think, and because I know how helpful it is to think, this is maybe the worst case scenario, the best case scenario, and this is maybe the most likely.
I'm gonna go for the most likely. But I'm ready for the best and the worst just in case.
Laurel (34:56.59)
So I'm having fun with this, Karen. would be mad at myself if I didn't bring this up, but I do know a little bit about your childhood in that your mom knew Dr. Francine Shapiro. So for those of you who are not in the EMDR world, Dr. Francine Shapiro is the woman who came up with the type of therapy that Sydney and I practice. So she's a big deal. She's no longer living. But what came up for me is like,
Have fun!
Laurel (35:26.666)
I of course then have an image of your mom and that thinks she was amazing if she was helping people. But moms are always complicated, right? But I'm curious if you checked in with your childhood self and the things she liked to do and lit her up, would she be surprised in what you ended up doing or did it feel like kind of this sort of collaborative, really integrative?
dynamic work was like what you were always kind of meant for.
I came, every question you guys ask, I'm like, that's such a great question. I like I'm being really repetitive here. So yeah, no, my mom is fantastic. And my parents, I remember, I think they'd say a few things. One, I remember a conversation that I was, right, both my parents were in the, they used to call them the helping professions, right? They were both doing psychotherapy. And so that's what I thought you just, that's what you did, is you did something to help people.
and so I remember being overwhelmed at about 11 or so about I needed to save the entire world, like all by myself. Perfect or not, I don't know in terms of like the plan, but like I just, and I became very overwhelmed and they said at dinner, cause everything happened at the dinner table in terms of conversation. they said, Karen, pick one small corner and make a difference there. So that not only helped me kind of throughout as kind of like a mantra in my head.
Yeah.
Karen (37:00.302)
But I think if they saw what I had done over my career, they'd say, OK, that makes sense. We tried to help her focus her energies and make a difference like where she was and not get overwhelmed by the needs of the whole planet. And I think that they, I remember my father asked me at some point, gosh, you're so independent. You're running off to all these countries with a one-way ticket. And you're quitting your job. And you don't know what you're doing next. This was a constant refrain. And I looked at him. said,
well, it's all your fault, because that's what we say to our parents, because they took us on a sabbatical to London when I was 11, just before I was overwhelmed with the help in the world conversation. And so I think that they really set up a very type of environment for me or expectation, although they wouldn't put any pressure. The environment was conducive for me to think and know that I wanted to help people in general and make a difference, number one. So don't think they'd be surprised there.
And I think that they really value travel and education. So they shouldn't have been surprised that I went overseas and lived overseas and worked for like 15 years of my career at least. And at the end of the day, I still think they were a little bit surprised. But and they were worried about me because I was in some some situations where they weren't super happy that I was in those situations. Maybe they felt they were dangerous. So that's maybe where they were a little uncomfortable and maybe a little surprised but
It's so interesting to hear you recall your childhood and I know one can see this but Karen has this huge smile on her face and one of the words that really stuck out to me that you said like 10 minutes ago was enough and it sounds like that is exactly what you were given. It's a place that was safe enough and they made you feel like you were good enough and loved enough and that is where our nervous systems respond and can explore and figure things out and so with that foundation of just enoughness.
When you think back on being a little kid, what is something that you could just get lost doing? You just had so much fun and so much joy. You were just in it when you were doing it.
Karen (39:03.862)
It's one that still exists today. It's dancing. I love riding horses. I love playing soccer. I did that through college even. But dancing, it's my jam. And ever since I was a little kid, I would just go do my thing and I would take lessons and I just loved dancing. And to this day, it is the one outlet that I can totally lose myself and
I had feeling.
Karen (39:32.866)
feel great and just have a wonderful time.
If I had to a medicine, that's my thing. It started as very young.
Yes, cold, like many cultures across time, like it's got bilateral, it's got usually music, there's like, yeah, it's check, check, check on adaptive coping. We love that one. I just feel now drawn to ask you, what is one of your most memorable places that you kind of got pulled into dance that maybe you didn't expect? Like, is there a fun
dance story that you can allude to or share with us as we round out our time together.
What about this Tunisia? It was the team we had. We weren't in the capital. I think we were out having a group meeting. And then we went to a restaurant and we were, I thought this was, we were just having some, you know, a very simple meal, et cetera, to end the day of meetings, cetera, and intense conversations.
Karen (40:48.214)
But I should have known, I think I was learning about Tunisians and Tunisian culture. And then someone pulled out probably a boombox, some sort of wasn't super official music playing situation. And everybody started dancing. was like, OK, I don't really know how to dance how they do. And I never really worried about that too much. But I thought, I want to let the team do their thing. Well, they pulled me right in and we took off. So that was really fun and unexpected.
I love how there are these moments of like spontaneous like resourcing, just these things that make us just feel so good inside and it's exactly what we need. And it sounds like your nervous system has this innate wisdom that if there's a knot in my yarn, I can dance it out.
I love how you just said that. I've learned so much from both of you. And I just think I'll add to that. It's also connection for me, which you probably have more to talk about, right? But like at that moment, I felt more connected to my team because super informally, we were enjoying our time together, right? And so that had additional meaning, not just for my own kind of like, okay, I feel more relaxed, et cetera, and joyful, but I have this opportunity to connect with people that I really respect and trust.
Absolutely. When our brains are balanced and we feel safe enough, we feel loved enough, we're connected to that, it's amazing because I think those stories have some thought, right? There's some wisdom or conclusions or lessons learned. There's the images, the colors, the sounds.
And there's almost always like the connection, the emotion, that middle brain really mammalian, like we're on this planet to not be in isolation. We're on this planet to connect and grow and learn and love and then die. I mean, it is, it's like a cycle. And that when all those things are in line, we feel it deeply and it's really not that hard of work, right? To use.
Laurel (42:51.928)
Sydney's or the flow, right? There is a flow. There's a natural flow that when our brains are balanced and connected internally and externally, just kind of works out. And I love that theme to me has come up multiple times, Karen, when you've shared things and, you know, like even like, it's your fault, mom and dad. Like you gave me permission. You put this idea in my head, right? And yeah, like to be myself. So I...
even loved that part. I like to end or we like to end with if you somewhat zoom out and just scan over all of the amazingness that is you that you shared, is there anything standing out or that your brain or your stories want to share with everyone or reflect that you hope they can take away for themselves?
Well, that's a fair question.
Karen (43:56.118)
Gosh, I would say life is so, it's not easy and of course it's so different for everybody. It can be so incredibly fulfilling and to do your best to try to find the thing or the people or the purpose that really brings you joy. Cause I really think that things can be hard and still bring you joy.
Things can be easy or middle and bring you joy. But I think now in my mid fifties, joy is something that I'm really prioritizing. Because I can do a lot of really good work and it can bring me joy, like I said, and help people. can, you know, see my kids, you know, grow up and do wonderful things, et cetera, spend time with friends and family. And so I think given everything, if we can all, if we can all try to find as much joy as possible, I think we'd all be in a better place.
love that. And joy exists in the present, right? You can remember times of joy, but really it is like you said, it's like a whole brain experience. You have to be in the moment connected to someone other than just yourself usually. so...
So there just needs to be more dancing.
I mean, I was kind of thinking you might say that like when in doubt, dance or something. I was on board. I'm glad we got there.
Karen (45:25.762)
That's better, can change it to that.
Well, I love it. then joy is what's passed down and you get to pass to your boys. And we started today. And what I love about this podcast is we can start with something that's pretty heavy and we get to this innate wisdom of just.
And that, and that experience, and your lived experience is what gets to be passed down. And imagine how cool it is for them to look up and be like, my mom's pretty awesome. Her brain's pretty awesome.
I hope they think that.
sure on days they do and on other days they're consumed with their own world experience. Karen, thank you so much for joining us today. It's fun. Your stories went in many directions, which was not so secretly what I was hoping for. And I just want to recognize how dynamic and
Karen (46:00.546)
They don't.
Laurel (46:22.968)
how much we can tell that you've done your own reflecting and processing. And I've heard you speak. I now really want to hear your full keynote. So for those of you who are looking for speakers, obviously you've heard what Karen is like here. And a little bit of her stories, I hope you seek her out and her expertise. Karen, thank you. And we really value your time and sharing your wisdom. So thanks again.
Well, thank you so much, Laurel and Sydney. Really appreciate it.
