05: The Why of Recognizing Burnout and Your Support Systems
About Dr. Joe Villecco
PT, DPT, OCS
Dr. Joe is a Board-Certified Clinical Specialist in Orthopedic Physical Therapy (OCS) and completed his Orthopedic Residency through Evidence In Motion in 2018. Prior to that, he received his Bachelor’s in Biology from SUNY Oneonta in 2015, where he also became a personal trainer, before going on to graduate from SUNY Upstate Medical University with his Doctorate of Physical Therapy in 2017.
Joe has been an athlete throughout his life, playing primarily baseball and soccer. He also has experience bodybuilding, obstacle racing, competitive running, competing in power lifting, and as a CrossFit athlete.
Outside of work, Joe enjoys spending time with his wife, Ali, his daughters, Lainey and Lilah, and his dog, Jax. He also enjoys watching a good Netflix series, drinking a nice craft beer/bourbon, and hiking in new places!
Sydney (00:04.202)
All right, everybody. Welcome back to the Why We Are podcast. I'm so excited to introduce you to our guest today. Today we're going to be talking to Dr. Joe Vilecco, who is an amazing physical therapist. He's the owner of Prosper PT and the co-founder of Catalyze Performance, which is an online personal training company. And I can't wait to dive in and hear a little bit more about his story and how he got to where he was today. So.
Joe, thank you so much for being here and joining Laurel and I for this hour.
Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for having me.
All right, you guys, so if we dive right in. Joe, I'm curious if you can share a little bit about an experience that you've had in your life that you feel like really stressed you to a point where you had to adapt or pivot to survive.
Yeah, so I guess it was near the end of 2017 around when I had just finished physical therapy school and was pretty revved up about getting started in my career. So I took a job with a company that I was really excited about working for with the promise of going into a residency program with that. It's kind what I wanted to be able to be on the fast track to getting good at what I do, not just doing it.
Joe (01:25.326)
So I moved from upstate New York down to Winston-Salem, North Carolina, and I took the job there. you know, I didn't really have anybody who lived there that I knew. I had one friend who was living about a half hour away and a couple of friends a couple hours away, but moved down there kind of on my own. My then girlfriend, now wife, still lived in New York, so kind of got into a long distance situation there, and I started working.
At first, I was pretty excited about it. I was like, I'm going to have mentorship. I'm going to get really good at this job through the residency. And I think I kind of put myself in a position unknowingly or unwilling, unmeaningfully to deplete myself of resources at the same time that I added a ton of stuff to my plate. So I took all this on that mentorship, unfortunately ended up not really being very helpful. And if anything, was.
I don't want, and it's not punitive, but just like it actually made things a little worse for me because I had this high expectation of having some help in the caseload at the clinic that I was at was much more complex and chronic than I had anticipated or had ever worked with. So I had a lot of questions and some pretty significant concerns around some of the symptoms I was seeing in patients. So that was getting me revved up at work and I wasn't getting a lot of help with that. In fact, I was kind of being told to just kind of deal with it.
And so combine that with being in a place with no real friends or family around and no, like I said, no outside resources and add on that I had four to five hours of work, you know, at least a few nights a week to come home to with the residency and unknowingly ended up in a pit by about three to six months into that. And that was, you know, at that point it became clear that I was not doing well.
More so even to my family and to my friends than it was to me. I think I've always been somebody that just kind of like his head down and goes forward and worries about the rest later. So I thought I was operating relatively well.
Laurel (03:35.118)
Joe, I'm gonna just step in because I think people can resonate and and we all have the tendency when we're not in it anymore to like kind of summarize with statements like Not well, but just to help paint the picture for us Now when you look back, what did not well look like or maybe feel like but certainly yeah Give us a little more insight into now what what you see that looking like or did look like
Yeah, yeah. was definitely, some of the things were clear and obvious. I was pretty unflexible to be able to do anything outside of my normal. So, you know, I was going to work, I was making sure I still got to the gym a few times a week. That was probably one of the things that I knew was kind of a rock for me at that time that was going to keep me anchored. So I kept doing that, but I didn't really have a lot of flexibility of like wanting to or actively doing much else, which is pretty un...
abnormal for me. I'm more of an extrovert and like to be doing stuff. But it was some of the obvious other things were like lack of sleep. Like I mean, I might've been sleeping maybe one to two hours a night. I was having like heart palpitations. So like the obvious physical signs were there. Then less obvious stuff looking back was like I said, being a little more isolated than I would normally be. I wasn't really seeking friendship or seeking a lot of opportunities to get out of the house.
And I was also realized in hindsight, I just like could not think clearly for a good portion of that period of time. Like it would take me maybe three to four hours to write a blog post that should have taken me norm or would normally have taken me like 30 minutes. I would just like type delete, type delete, right? Like, and just get so deep into my mind. The verbiage of everything. Yeah. I would try to be like so perfect. So was like, people are going to misread this. And then it also went into like imposter syndrome of being like a new PT, right?
I don't want to miss say this and I don't want to look stupid in front of my peers. So that stuff in hindsight, it's like, my gosh, I was so, so focused on this stuff.
Laurel (05:39.51)
Yeah, well, thank you. So I've been thinking about this a lot, of the term overwhelmed gets thrown out a lot, particularly young professionals, right? We see it in our field in counseling. I'm hearing it in your field of PT, doctors and lawyers. And I was thinking a lot about what it means to be overwhelmed. And it's often just like, it's the sheer quantity, right? It's like too many things in our brain.
has a hard time sorting through it. But I was reading one of my favorite definitions of trauma. I think like, Gavrila Mate I'll correct that later if it's wrong, but he says, trauma is anything that happens too much, too fast or too soon to our nervous systems. And I bring that up because what you're describing is too much. And we're conditioned to say like, oh, that's not trauma, it was a new job. But.
From a nervous system standpoint, what you're describing is too much things stacked on top of your brain and your body. And then you started to have what we would call some trauma responses. So just curious, I see your nods. What comes up for you or what do you think as I reflect that back to you?
I think I've spent some time reflecting on this before in some ways and I absolutely think it would be called trauma. It's just different than I would have seen it as prior to that. I would have thought something more extreme and this was more of like a rather than being like a sharp cliff edge, this was like a long drawn out run up to like a fall off. Which wasn't what I would have, or at least with my training in the past, wouldn't have thought of it that way. I would have thought of it more as like.
person has something acutely really bad happen and then they experience these symptoms as a result of that.
Laurel (07:28.354)
Yeah. And that is like the definition of post-traumatic stress disorder is that, you know, technically to get that diagnosis, you need to sort of witness or experience a near death, you know, And I think when I mean, I'm guilty of this too, my own life, when that is absent or actually technically, even when it's been present, I'm still like, it wasn't that bad. Like that was not like a real, a real trauma. That was on a real thing.
that would warrant this. it's just nice to hear you, one, as you're on this side of it, reflect back, be like, oh no, it was that bad for me to go through it. And I think that has the potential to help a lot of people. So, oh, go ahead, Sid.
I was just going to add, you know, I hear the cognitive recall of everything that happened. And one thing that stuck with me is you said your heart palpitations. Like you actually had very somatic, pretty serious, I'm imagining symptoms coming from your body. And, you know, the brain loves to do what it knows how to do. And so when you moved from New York, you were doing everything you knew how to do, but it was no longer working and your body was showing you, hey,
It's time to shut up and listen. This isn't working the way it used to.
Yeah, definitely. And I mean, it was I took that very serious because, well, I'm a healthcare professional, probably partially that. But also I was like, I actually went to a cardiologist, I was like, I need to like get my heart checked. I don't actually even know what's going on. Like, I know I'm highly stressed. wasn't in like, I wasn't unaware that I was stressed out. That just wasn't unaware how stressed out I was or how stressed you have to be to start getting somatic like responses. So and I think because of the same thing that Laura was talking about as far as like the
Joe (09:17.294)
you know, acute versus like ramping was also part of why it took me so long to realize how bad I was. It's because I didn't get there in a day. I got there over months and it was just getting slowly worse and worse. And it was like, you know, like this thing's a little worse, whatever. And then this thing's a little worse, whatever, until you finally get to the point where you look back and you go, that's a lot of things. A lot of things are worse, you know.
Yeah, that's so big. think, you know, we talk about everyone sort of has that point where it is too much. And, you know, I think Sydney, I want people to hear and Joe feels like he would weigh in on and agrees like it doesn't matter what amount of weight gets added that makes it too heavy. Like that is not it's the fact that at some point it's too much and that we're all mammalian.
and human in that way of when the brain gets past the point and can no longer integrate information the way it's used to because of the high levels of stress, the lack of sleep, the usually under nourishment that we put ourselves through, you're going to have to reset. You're going to have to then start helping your system get back to. So with, you know, you have
some health knowledge too. So I'm curious, like, what was the re what was the sort of that like aha moment? And then what did you find worked for you to help reset you get you back to you?
Yeah, it was the point as far as like, how did I figure it out? How did I get there? It was once I got to a point where I started to recognize some of those things and I was thankful that, you I did say like, I didn't have any local resources, but I still have a family that loved me and I had my girlfriend. so these people were probably getting so sick of hearing from me, but I was still leaning on people.
Joe (11:15.446)
And I think people's reflections of me started becoming clear and they weren't mad or anything, but it was just like, these people are wholly concerned to the point where I started recognizing it. I knew I needed to do something, but I was kind of far enough in the ditch where I wasn't going to be able to do it. Like I couldn't bear the idea of like feeling like I had failed and feeling like I wasn't good enough to take on something. And that kind of goes actually back to the original question too, which was
why did it get like this? mean, partially my own pride, I think. I've looked at it as far as like, you know, if someone else was in these shoes, like they could have done this, why am I not able to do this? And I should be able to do this. So just do it, you know, and just kept pushing myself that way and not realizing like, it's okay that you just like, this is a bad situation, dude. It would have been bad for anybody, but you don't think that in the moment. And so it led eventually, sorry, go ahead.
just really glad to hear you say that too, because I think that's something a lot of people can connect with is it's looked at in society as such a great strength, right? White knuckle, keep going, get your ass through it, and it's all going to work out okay. And that is what worked for you most of your life. And by the time you got to Winston Salem, you'd graduated twice, and you were already successful. So your brain is going to tell you keep doing what has worked until it's not going to work anymore.
Yeah, I think so. I think I actually explained school that way to a lot of people. I'm like, high school, you work hard and it's the hardest you've ever worked. And then you go to college and you just work harder and it's the hardest you've ever worked. And same thing in grad school. And so my assumption was just like, this is the next phase that I'm supposed to do. And this is fine. But, and if maybe the mentorship had been there, maybe if I had moved to a place with some friends and given myself some additional resources that way, maybe that would have been true. But I don't think I was accounting for the other stuff. That wasn't what I expected and wasn't the way that I thought it would go.
And I think in that same way of like speaking about the whole pride thing and trying to push too hard too is like in healthcare and in a lot of fields I think like imposter syndrome I mentioned that before but I think that's a big thing and it's something I definitely have contended with over the years and especially early. I was like I need to be able to show that I belong here and I can do this and that became really really not helpful. So boy along the way.
Laurel (13:29.422)
Well, to your point of like you're in school, you're gonna work the hardest and then you get to your job, but you're also like used to being measured against like the A standard, right? And so it's like that mindset also sets you up to be like, I need to be as good at that person. Like that person been doing for 10 years, it's taken two advanced topic training. Like you don't know the first little baby steps almost to do what that person's doing. Like no, but we don't even know that coming out of grad school.
And I also think school doesn't prepare us well for understanding the wisdom that comes through like failing and adapting in real time. Right. So, you know, I'm curious, like what you spoke to the other people in your life and yes, you know, that get to do a podcast with someone I adore and supports me and we but what did that
that experience or like now looking back, what did it wake up in you or what did you tap into that maybe was innate that now feels like essential to work and keeping yourself well at work, which is really what I meant and I think you got, but just to make sure.
Okay.
Joe (14:44.192)
Yeah, I think there's probably like a few things there that I ended up tapping into. One was finding what my anchors actually were, right? Like what were the things that really like, I got to make sure those things are in check or nothing else is going to matter. And so that was one thing that was really helpful and kept me going through this. think honestly, if I didn't have those things in hindsight, I can't even imagine how much worse the situation would have been. And then two.
I'm sorry, can you repeat the question one more time? just lost my train of thought.
No, you're good. Just that what did you tap into or find in yourself that now feels essential to maintain wellness as a health care professional, but also as a husband and a father and, you know, Joe, first of all.
Yeah, for me, the word that describes that question is just the urinate wisdom. I know I use that all the time. But what does that feel like it is for you?
Yeah, I think another piece of that was the self check-in. I think before this all happened, I just didn't check in. Not well, anyway, to be like, truly, where are you? And looking at things both subjectively, just how do I feel, but objectively, are you doing things the way that you should be doing them, and are you being successful in those things the way that you normally would be? As typically, if I start to see a fall off in these other things, I start to be like,
Joe (16:07.95)
I need to do an internal check, like something's going on. And that actually has kind of led me in that direction because I think that helped me in that moment. And the last one is actually kind of in piece to the resources component, which is I think I knew I needed someone else to get me out of this situation because in that time I just didn't have it. that's embarrassing to say. I suppose they're just like hard to say, but it's like, you know, I didn't. so I think it was like that in
I would say an innate call to your resources, your family. I needed people to step in for me and thankfully I got that. It kind of kicked me in the butt, made me go forward and have a crucial conversation that at the time I was not comfortable with. But now as a result of this, I don't ever put crucial conversations to the side.
Well, and I really respect you like owning that and hearing you say that too, because I think in our society we tend to forget sometimes that our brains are hardwired, like we see ourselves through other people. That's how we make sense of our identity. especially in a mammalian brain, that connection, that attachment is so needed and it carries into adulthood. And when the people we love are seeing things, but not calling us on our shit, sometimes that can get lost a little bit.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I feel very thankful to have had the people that I had around me to get me through that.
So I'm curious, hearing yourself kind of talk about this, what are the main things that stand out to you now when you kind of pendulate and look back on Winston Salem versus where you are now in the present in Raleigh?
Joe (17:51.054)
Yeah, I think I honestly, know, it's one of those things I look back and I'm for a while I kind of beat myself up about it as far as like the way that I handled it and man, I wish I had done better and yada yada things. And I think now I relieved myself of that responsibility and said, you got yourself into a situation that was tough, but you also got put into a situation that was tougher than you ever thought the way that it was going to be. So I'm able now to like remove myself from that.
And I also look back with gratitude now at it to say like, that situation sucked and I'm not trying to like dial that down, but it's also the reason I am who I am. It's the reason I run the company the way that I do now. and so I think I just look back now and just go, man, I'm so much stronger. have way more crucial conversations and you know, like I said, I handle things so much better. And as I said before, I kind of had those internal checks now that didn't exist before that I,
think I was gonna have to learn at some point and it just happened to be this experience that got me there.
So I'm going to go off script a little Joe for personal curiosity. I, cause this is something I think about too, as we transition into mentor roles. what's because of that early mentorship experience or lack of mentorship experience, like what is like something that you feel super important or that stays kind of close to your heart as you transition into more of a leader role in your field?
Yeah, I think number one is ensuring that it's there. Like it's present. Literally. Presence. You know, that we're not just saying the word mentorship and we're actually dedicating, you know, time and resources to it. But also, I think honestly, the biggest one is recognizing that you're dealing with a person in front of you and not just a physical therapist. They're like, I can make this the greatest physical therapist in the world. But if they're like internally suffering because
Laurel (19:31.862)
That you exist.
Joe (19:56.152)
the workload's too high, it's come on too fast or anything like that. We're not gonna get there and we're not gonna sustain this. And so I think the biggest thing for me is making sure that I'm checking in on them on a personal level, not just professional. And making sure that they're actually pleased with the way that things are going and that they're happy, not just completing their job successfully, because you could treat patients well and still be hating your day to day.
Yeah, and I mean, I, I completely agree. And I also would guess, and I want to give you a little more credit. It's not so much that they're happy. It's that they feel supported and cared about and feel like they can grow and also make mistakes. Right. And we, we like to say happy, just like we like to say overwhelmed, but professional happiness is not such a simple thing to help construct. And I'm hearing just,
these elements of, you come from strong attachment, people that showed up for you reflected back. And it sounds like now that's important in your work life is that I'm going to create environments where attachment is important, right? That you can ask a hard question, you can mess up. And as long as you own it, and I know about it, we can work through it. Because I love that. think that we, you know, there's a lot that's like keep work and
life separate, but really, I think, you know, yeah, and I'm projecting what's important to me into this a little bit. I think I hear it in what you're saying is like, when you work with human beings, and then those human beings work with other human beings, it's really important that we stay connected to the humanness of it. The care of it. And I love that, you know, you won, you just really have to show up and
Turns out the neuroscience supports that too, right? Showing up and actually showing that you care about someone is very impactful and calming to their brains because they remember they're not alone. And it's very different than telling them they're not alone. And then when your little mammal brain looks around and sees no other human that wants to help you, I feel alone.
Joe (22:15.118)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. think, and like you said, we're taking care of people. And so like, if you are not taking care of as a person, you're not able to have that like kind of full cup situation, right? Like if your cup's not getting filled and you don't feel good, it's gonna be really hard to make other people feel good too. So, you know, taking some time to invest in ensuring that their cup is full. Like you said, not just happy, but like fulfilled and supported and those kinds of things. I think it carries over pretty easily and it's pretty obvious if you're on the outside watching.
like if that's going well.
Well, and that's an innate mammalian drive is to be seen and to be heard. it's, so interesting to me because I don't even know if you've pieced it together, Joe, but what you really needed in Winston Salem when you are just surviving and maybe not thriving is exactly what you built a whole practice around and our thoughts during that team.
Yeah, absolutely. And in some ways I actually feel a little selfish in that, to be honest. I'm like, I don't know if everyone needs the level of support that I give them, but I'm going to give it to them. And we'll see what they can, you know, if they don't want that much, we can back off. But I mean, we're going to start way more than when they, hopefully way more than what they need.
This is for me. You need to sit down and I need to care about you because that's what I need. Okay.
Joe (23:31.15)
Hey, I'm not gonna say that that relationship is not reciprocal. I'm absolutely fed by making sure that they are. That is the reason I started this, or a big part of it.
I mean, again, very biased here, but I hope that more people who feel like that seek positions of leadership because that is not always the default that people think make good leaders, but it turns out and particularly in helping healing teaching fields, they make the best leaders because they scaffold and show through example what it is to nurture and teach
healing and relationship building, you know, we do know that people need to feel safe enough to heal, to learn, to grow. That is true in physical therapy. That is true in occupa- like, right? Like we don't feel safe with our athletic trainer, we're not going to get better in the same way that if that person makes us feel comfortable. So, um...
Now you're going to see a hell of a lot of avoidance.
Yeah, and I think actually kind of a it's a weird reflection, but it's one that I was actually pretty happy about in the hindsight of the situation too was I relieved mentally tried to relieve myself of the person who was supposed to be my mentor, their responsibility to a degree, because I don't know that I think that person was a really effective clinician and I don't know that that made them a really effective leader, but it was the reason that they were probably promoted in that situation.
Joe (25:02.718)
And I don't know that they were equipped to actually be the mentor that I needed. So we have to, I have to like hindsight, look at that and say like, it's not entirely just their fault. Right? Like this is a situation where that just may not have been the case. so I try to think of it that way too. Right. So I'm not blaming either.
Well, and I think with that, I'm hearing a lot of like, these are the pieces of really adaptive information we've taken from this event and you've kind of woven into your story. And Joe, I'm a little curious, like nowadays with things going on in your life, because I don't know if all of our listeners know, but Joe has two beautiful twin baby girls that are one. So there's a lot going on in his life. But I'm curious, what are some ways that you get out of your head when things kind of start to build?
like they did during that time.
I mentioned one, the gym is always really important to me or just physical activity. I can incorporate that in numerous ways, whether it be like my normal, be like lifting weights or CrossFit. for a long time, once having the girls, since you mentioned them, I would take them and go for runs. And some kind of physical activity is a huge outlet for me as far as letting my brain be free, take a little bit of time.
In fact, I have had some conflict around that in that like a lot of the books you read and stuff are like, that's the best time to think about business. And I'm like, I'm putting music on. I don't think I should be doing this right now. I need to like let it all fly for a second. And honestly, the other one that sticks out, I mean, aside from obviously like playing with the girls and spending some time with family when we actually dedicate it, because that's a big thing, I really have our time if we're not clearly defining lines. If we're just at home, that's not.
Joe (26:43.586)
just play time with the girls. Like my brain still wants to go to work and stuff. So to find play time and video games. think video games has always been a place where when the world is too chaotic, I fall into and it's not like I'm trying to turn the world off per se, but like, I just find it very relaxing and it's enough sensory input to me to let my brain kind of tune out. If I just sit there and like watch TV or read a book, my brain is going to run away so fast.
and it's also social for me. I get to connect with some of my friends and that is huge. So I'd say between the physical activity, dedicated time with the daughters and wife, and then, the video games, those are probably the three I think of.
Video games are, they get a lot of attention in a lot of directions, but just simply from a construction standpoint, they're pretty cool in terms of how they activate the brain because there's imagery that's depersonalized, right? A lot of times it's queuing creative or storytelling motifs that we already have, right? And then there's the problem solving aspect because we're
digesting information, your eyes typically have to scan. So now we're bilateral movement and eye movements, which do tend to calm the brain or activate the brain at least in a certain way. And then there's a bilateral tactile component usually with how people play. I like that.
when people talk about like, can use video games in a way that's adaptive and we can use them in a way that is maladaptive and people like don't get up to pee and we don't whatever. Almost all coping behaviors can be useful and unhelpful. And so I love that you say that because right, like playing games at any age can be really good for your brain. And there are so many different ways to play games.
Joe (28:29.902)
you
Laurel (28:49.204)
and video games when used well do offer. mean, the social component changed so much too, right? Yeah. So now you're getting an attachment you met, you're playing, you're moving hands and body, like hands and brain. So,
Here's a fun question. Yeah. Who do you play video games with? At what are they friends as adult friends, childhood friends?
When did you become friends with them? that what saying? Yeah.
Yeah, multiple stages, but mostly high school and college. it's certainly a component of keeping us together too. Because for a lot of us live similar place now, most of us lived apart for years. And so like, it's a big part of how we actually sustained our friendships. I'm not going to sit there and make six different one hour phone calls. I'm just going to get all six people on my video game and spend an hour playing together while we catch up on life. know, but yeah, so mostly younger.
When I asked that question, in a pretty direct way, because it's interesting to me that these are all people who knew you during this time we've been talking about in this part of your story and were able, I'm assuming, to be there for you in some way, or form, whether it was through video games or some other kind.
Joe (30:08.982)
Absolutely. Yeah, directly and indirectly, know, whether it was times at the time this was when Fortnite was big. So we'd be spending a lot of time on Fortnite when I was in Winston Salem, which may have played a part in my slight social isolation. But the but no, I mean, yeah, absolutely. The time that I spent playing video games with those guys was a big part of getting me through that time period. So I definitely would say yes. And I think about different time periods, too, in life where
I'm pretty surprised that we get through periods of time where maybe you didn't like the way that you were at that time in your life. Winston Salem would be a great example. Probably was not the most fun person to talk to or be around, but it definitely shows you the people that you have the most support from because they're going to sit there and even though they know you're not at your best, they're going to love you through it anyway. So that was really important.
Laurel (31:00.866)
Yeah.
I will say too off the video game kind of conversation, I do think it was kind of a natural continuum when you say the words play because when I think about things that I really enjoyed as a kid, I would be constantly lost in play as it relates to like my own imagination, right? I was going to be James Bond for a day and I'd have my little like fake cap gun thing and be running around for four hours by myself or with my brother or something, you know, pretending to be James Bond and then, you know.
be a WWE wrestler with my little figurine or like playing NHL with a fake stick, you know, and it's like you just took basically what I was already drawing up as a kid and now you've put it into a video game format. And now my brain is like, cool, dude, you don't even have to like try to figure this out. Like now you're just enacting a story, like you said. So I think it definitely connects back. That's kind of always been my way of getting lost, I suppose.
Yeah, and I mean, I even like the comment you make about, you know, you all like think about work while you're working out, like, you know, the thing about our brains is it's it's gonna work on our problems. And if sitting thinking about it on purpose hasn't gotten you the answer, probably sitting about it thinking about it on purpose for more times not going to get you the answer. Right. Yeah. So I love like
move your body, play, go talk to someone, like try something else. The problem still exists. You can and you already used like to check in on it, but I find so many of us actually find the answer we're looking for outside of the environment that we've been trying to force the answer in. And that novelty, the play, the sparks, a different part of our brain, a different memory. And I'm like, actually, you know, fake hockey.
Laurel (32:52.524)
that might help this client I'm feeling stuck with. He loves hockey and I'm gonna bring in a stick. It's like so simple, but genius. And we wouldn't have found that maybe in the PT office, but we did find it on this podcast randomly talking about your favorite things to do in childhood, right? And.
I also just love, like I constantly feel inspired by other people's stories and their brains where it's like, I'll get an idea for one of my clients talking to someone about something that's kind of totally unrelated to therapy, but it's just cause they were excited about it. And it like sparked something in my brain. So, I don't know. I loved, I love hearing different people's ways that they take care of themselves. Um,
Yeah, it's interesting. You talk about the solving problems outside of yourself. I don't know if it was a podcast or a book or something I read talked about that. You guys probably would have a much more, I don't know, high level understanding of this. But there was like a piece of advice that said, like, if you're stuck doing a problem, go do anything else and exercise is what they were talking about. Go for a run. And they're like, and don't even think about the problem. Just go for your run. And like your brain is actually it's like, I think they use the word like tertiary basically, like your problem solving under the layer without your brain, you you consciously knowing.
And they're like, this is why a lot of times, like randomly, you're going to remember that person's name you forgot earlier in the day, because like, your brain's still doing it. You just don't, you're not consciously there. I, you know, it makes me think of that anyway. And I think that's really cool.
was spiraling once and called Laurel and she told me to hang up the phone, move my body and call her back.
Sydney (34:34.24)
The same reason. Well, and I love it. I mean, my brain always kind of thinks in pictures and analogies and metaphors. I'm sitting here with my husband's Rubik's Cube and it just got me thinking, you know, a lot of what you're sharing, Joe, really is kind of like a Rubik's Cube. Like if we try our best to make something fit and it doesn't fit and we keep doing what we're doing, it's never going to And so, like as you tap into your innate wisdom.
I like that advice.
Sydney (35:02.156)
whether it's through video games or I know you're a really big sports guy, so I'm sure that's a pretty big piece, things start to fall into place and you can kind of trust that wisdom that you really do know what you're doing. And you got here for a reason.
Yeah, I think that's hard sometimes in the moment, but I definitely try to remind myself. I we're, I suppose, maybe we're not all our worst critic, but I sure am.
We know ourselves the best.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
Laurel (35:33.282)
Right.
And sometimes the I because I hear that term a lot that I'm my own worst critic and I think That's also something to celebrate like it's a really shitty feeling. Don't get me wrong. But it gets us where we're To a certain degree. So it is a defense mechanism and I will kick on and our brain will say like no do this do this better and So many times that celebrated in society because I have the three degrees on my wall
Mm-hmm.
Joe (36:02.114)
Yeah.
but also it's worth kind of taking a beat and checking in with your brain of is it working for this instance? And if it's not, that's where we just adapt and we just try a different color.
Yeah. Yeah, I like that. think, I think one of the things for me as it relates to the whole Winston Salem thinking back thing was I was a very big critic in the moment and even shortly after, but obviously, you years haven't gone by now. It's, it wasn't that I'm not critical of some of the things that are there because some of the things I could have done better, but I think the verbiage changes, right? It's just not in a, it's not anymore like you did a bad job. It's like,
You may have performed better in that situation or next time you're in that situation, here's what you're going to do, right? Like more constructive versus destructive, I think is what I think of too when I think of the internal critic and what you're talking about.
Laurel (36:59.904)
Yeah, I was thinking about this actually this week of I'm pretty like default critical. But I was thinking about like my inner critic believes that I can do it. So like it's not like Laurel, you're terrible at this. Give up. Like that would be a bully. My inner critic is not a bully.
my inner critic is very critical under this umbrella of like, because you can do it, because this isn't the end of our story, because you don't fail here. And that was like an insight that had never occurred to me. And I'm like, no wonder when people are like, you need to talk positively to yourself. I was always like, who are you? Like, maybe I do, but maybe I don't, right? Like, so anyway, I just.
I share that too because there's not gonna be one right path, right? When we're in the moment and I'm, know, moments where I think back where I was the most critical of myself. I don't know that I knew that it believed in me, but I back now and I'm like, I was so hard on myself because I knew I would figure it out, right? Like I just was like, you're not winning. You're not failing here. And then I did need you, like you said.
some help, I needed a break or a what, you but it just totally shifted how I saw that voice in my head. And this really did happen this week. So I'm glad that you sort of opened up the space for that conversation. And so I think when it comes to like getting to know yourself, parts of that, those relationships, just like the real life external, they're always evolving, right? They're not.
The way I view myself is not the same as when I was 24 right out of grad school. So I'm curious now as you've, you know, can take a moment, a couple of breaths and you reflect back over all that you've shared. What do you want that 24 year old to know now? Or like, how do you, if there was like sort of one piece of wisdom you could give him, what would it be?
Joe (39:17.87)
That is a deep question. My 24 year old son. I wish that I could have not worried so much about what other people thought, I think would probably be the easiest piece of advice to give. Because I think if you trace that back into a lot of what made the Winston-Salem situation so difficult, you will find that that's a common thread in a lot of it.
Why did I care that the blogs weren't exactly perfectly worded? Why was I so concerned about patient care and was I doing the right things and blah, blah? Definitely all of the imposter syndrome, all of that stuff came from this, I don't know if it's a need for external feedback from people, but it was this thought that I was being judged essentially and I needed to hold up to this level.
And I think if I could have changed that, a lot of other dominoes would have fallen. So I think if I had one thing, I would probably be the lowest hanging fruit to start knocking out some other dominoes.
That's a great one. Yeah, go ahead, Sid.
And just even hearing you say that, it really is that performance piece of if we take away performance, what are our brains capable of? And it's probably a whole hell of a lot more than you think it is.
Joe (40:41.934)
Yeah.
Laurel (40:46.486)
Yeah, I find happiness, contentment, for most people I know, people I've worked with, it's much more about embracing and enjoying the process and becoming a whole lot less fixated and needing of the outcomes.
perv
Joe (41:04.762)
Yeah, yeah, I think that was a big part of it, the focus on the outcome. Because I mean, professionally, as I've developed over the years now, too, even aside from Winston Salem, it's been that way. Hindsight, I'm like, you know, like I have a specialization in physical therapy and people will ask me like, was it worth it to get that like, you know, those letters on the end of your name? And I'm like, no, the letters have not helped me almost at all. But the process of getting those letters, I became a really good physical therapist. So that was really helpful.
So the outcome itself really was not that fruitful, but man, did the process help me.
Yeah, and I mean, I don't know if it's like this in your field, Joe, but like so few people even know what any of our letters mean. Right. They're like, I picked you because you had the most letters. I was like.
It's alphabet soup at some point.
Joe (41:48.65)
Exactly. Right. I always laughed about that because people will say that they're like, do you think that you got a bunch of people like coming back to you because of your credentials? I was like, honestly, I've only had one person even bring it up to me my entire career.
I that question a lot in our field too, with all my certificates and all the stuff up on the wall. I like to tell people, no, none of that actually matters. It's the fact that I have a dog in my profile picture.
Right
100 % Molly is like our best advertising
Yeah.
Joe (42:23.798)
Let me pause for one sec, something fell. Let me just see what's going on.
I feel like this is a good stopping point. Yeah. We can do a thank you and.
Sounds good. You want to thank him?
I heard like two different things crash. I was like, there's someone just coming my door. anywho.
We feel like we could just kind of transition out on this. Does that feel okay to you, Jo?
Joe (42:54.262)
Yeah, whatever you guys think is best.
Well, Joe, with that, we appreciate you taking the time and reflecting your wisdom and sharing some about your inner critic. think I personally resonated with that and many other things you said. So thank you for sharing time and vulnerability to reflect on past stress, but ultimately just how it's helped you be and create a place where you value other people.
and other people's learning that is near and dear to both of our hearts and what we believe in this podcast and in the Whole Brain Institute of, you know, the people we work with matter, their viewpoints matter. And we don't need to make them see the world the way we see it to make them be very good at what they do. And I just loved getting a teeny little glimpse into another practice and
approach that embraces that same concept. So thank you so much for being here, Joe.
Yeah. Well, thank you guys for having me. Thank you for the reframe on the internal critic too. I really enjoy the way that you put that. And also thank you guys for doing this. think this is awesome to give everybody a chance to like, you know, hear from people. And I think it'll resonate with a lot of people in the way that they realize that they're not alone in this. And hopefully it'll help bring some of those people to, you know, counseling or whatever they might need because, you know, it is helpful and it was a part of my journey as well. So hopefully it'll be that for others.
Laurel (44:27.084)
Yeah, or PT. I think healing journey, like it starts where it starts. and so I know you didn't say that for me to call out your field, but sometimes we've got to get in touch with our body to realize like we could organize stuff differently in our, in our minds. And sometimes our mind embracing and kind of editing this makes us realize, wow, working out is good. Or I've had this nagging ankle injury and, that's why I don't like working out anymore. Right. So, you know, we've,
We want people on the show that like to look at the whole person and meet people where they're at. you know, healers that we enjoy spending time with are open to like being a piece and not the piece. Right. And that's just one of my favorite things about what we do. There's so many different ways to help facilitate holistic wellness and we need all of them. So.
Yeah, there are so many people I would not have been able to help if it wasn't for people like you guys to be able to get over that edge and be able to make the change. Because like you said, it's all connected. The brain runs the body, right?
What? No, I'm just kidding.
Brilliant. On that note.
Laurel (45:36.076)
keep that sound bite for someone like a doctor is saying
It's going to be our new outro. But really, Joe, thank you so much for sharing this time with us and fitting us into your schedule, I know how busy you are. And for those of you guys listening, if you want to hear more about Joe, we're going to link his PT practice and his online catalyzed practice as well below so you can read more and connect with him there. Thank you all, and we hope to catch you on the next podcast.
